The voting is over.

And now what?

You're about to find out with Democratic State Representative Alabas Farhat.

So sit in with us as we get to inside Out.

Off the record.

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And now this edition of Off the Record with Tim Skubick Welcome to studio C this edition of Off the Record, we have a lead stor that involves the running mate for the person who is running as a Republican for governor.

Let's take a look at both.

The Republican ticket for governor and Lieutenant Governor John James and Representative Jay DeBoyer Heres his bio.

56 years old, father of two adult children.

Had 12 years as local clerk in Saint Clair County.

He's also an ex township supervisor.

He's in his second term in the Michigan House.

He was a local business person and has one year of community college experience.

Some believe since he has a record of cross-examining Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson, who is also running for governor.

Perhaps he will continue that on the campaign trail on behalf of the ticket.

Here on the House floor recently, he accused the secretar of having a pattern of conduct.

And the pattern is obstruct.

Obstruct, obstruct.

Deny.

Deny.

Deny.

Go to court.

That's troubling to me.

The Secretary's defenders argued the representative is using his oversight committe to take political shots at her.

I've never taken a political shot at Jocelyn Benson.

Even though they claim that this is political.

Other reason for his selection on the ticket.

Mr.

James does not have hands on legislative experience.

His running mate does.

And while some of the grassroot MAGA folks who support the president have had some issues with Mr.

James, they have no issues and they are solid representative DeBoyer.

It's an interesting twist for state employees.

You'll be interested to know that Mr.

DeBoyer wants you to get out of your homes post-Covid and back in your downtown Lansing offices.

We do not operate as efficiently.

The way we're operating right now, as far as relative to service.

So half of the equation is now set, the Republican ticket.

And as for the Democratic ticket and Miss Benson's pick, as they used to say, stay tuned.

All right.

So what did you make of this pick?

I think it's foreshadowing.

I think it tells us a lot about how this campaign is going to go this fall.

There were some other people being considered for the job, Tom Leonard being one of them, who Leonard has been very outspoken on data centers gone against the utilities.

They chose to go with DeBoyer, who's been.

Former Speaker of the House.

He's a former speaker of the House.

I think if they would have picked Leonard, it would have been a sign, hey, we're going to focus on data centers picking the DeBoyer.

I think it signals kind of a broader focus on we're just going to attack Jocely Benson over the next few months.

When I talked to him yesterday he said he's going to continue holding House oversight hearings that involve Benson.

You betcha, boys and girls.

Yeah.

So if you don't have a lot o money to run TV ads right now, how can you get your negatives out there on your opponent?

You have a House committee that could spend the next couple of months doing every digging into all the dirty laundry they can find involving the Secretary of state.

Yeah.

I mean, let's James run a campaign where he can keep his hands fairly clean because now he has his running mate who can just go out there and do all the dirty work.

He can be the aggressor, he can be the attack dog, and John James can be over here and be like, I'm focusing on policy and this is what this is what I want to do for the people of Michigan.

While Benson has to be on the back foot because now she's got to fight what's going on in the House oversight committees.

Thank goodness you did the bio because was someone as someone who doesn't spend outside of the bill.

Yeah.

As someone who doesn't.

I think I may be a supporter.

I got the tote bag but as someone who doesn't spend five days a week in Lansing, my first thought was J. Who?

Thats true, there's no nam recognition with this guy.

Yeah.

And in terms of geographica bounces from Saint Clair County, I mean, why not Western Michigan?

Why not Detroit?

I mean, I know John James is in Western Michigan and he's in Macomb County, but who what what does he bring to it?

I mean, you know, as an old guy, I gotta tell you, these old white, bald guys, I can't tell them apart.

Well.

Look at he's a workhorse, not a show horse.

Okay?

And you guys are right.

His job is now to be the bad cop.

Well, Mr.

James is a good cop, okay?

And he's already laid the groundwork.

That speech on the House floor was, There was more to that.

Okay, this is TV.

I couldn't run all of it.

But he's he's game for doing this, isn't he?

He's a really, really good communicator, too.

He's one of those people that there's not a lot of these people in politics anymore.

You can put Jay DeBoyer in front of a crowd of 20 reporters and he can take every question, push back when he wants to.

I've dealt with him for a while.

I think that's one of his strengths.

You talk about the geographical area that he comes from.

Hey, it's kind of a similar area that John represents in Congress.

Yes part of Macomb County too.

It's a great it's a great point, but I think that's strategic.

I think that's part of the problem here for Republicans.

Their base is not that enthused going into this election.

They're struggling with independents.

Yes.

But they also have this other problem on their right flank, where the people that came out to vote for Donald Trump two years ago aren't that excited to come out and vote again.

I think the is kind of a play for those people.

Hey, let's throw him out there, try to juice the vote in Macomb, and Saint Clai and the whole area of the thumb.

They've got to do well there.

I mean, where does he not come from?

Kent County You talked about West Michigan.

It's possible Jocelyn Benso picked someone from Kent County.

I think Republicans are going to struggle there.

So can they make that up in Macomb and some other areas of the state?

Well, considering that they have an enthusiasm problem, I think then to your point, having somebody who is doesn' have the name recognition who.

Great.

He gave speeches on the Hous floor, but like what normal Joe and Jane is watching those speeches.

I mean, they're just the people.

People are not watching them.

We ar we are watching those speeches.

But the regular folks are really are not.

So I mean, for an election where James is really going to need to get his people and Republicans enthusiastic to get out and vote, I'm starting to wonder if Jay's got it.

And Tom Leonard, Mike Cox, Perry Johnson, I doubt he'd want to be secretary of state.

But these guys have run statewide campaigns and they've done well statewide.

They would bring more money, they'd have more name recognition, and I think they'd be someone that people who maybe are thinking that we've got the far right covered.

Let's get something a little more moderate.

They might say, I know these guys.

I'm comfortable with these guys And I do think Craig is right.

There's a huge issue out there that's motivating people across the country.

Data centers and utility bills.

And if you have a record and you have a willingness to fight on those, we're going to care a lot mor than the elections are stolen.

They just send people to Michigan for the primary?

We haven't heard one peep about a foreign person voting or a ballot got bent, or there's a flake of bamboo on some.

I mean, stop that.

Talk about issues that people care about that matter to us are utility rates are too damn high.

And the data centers do we get to decide does the state decide does the feds get to decide?

These are issues that will motivate voters and that actually have an impact on our lives.

Election security.

When was the last time an election was stolen?

I mean, give me a break.

Will the democrats say, an all male ticket?

Yeah, I think definitely.

Oh, is that an issue?

Yeah.

I mean, it's it's according to the research I've seen, it's the first one that the state has had since the 1970s.

So I think that's going to be an issue.

I mean, that was another story.

He could have there is a lot of female Republicans that are qualified that some people were pushing for to get this job.

John went to a different way You talked about data centers.

There were people in the party pushing for Tom Leonard saying, hey, data centers.

That's the weakness that Jocelyn Benson has.

Her husband was involved in some way in this project in Selene Township that is so controversial.

Although they deny it.

Well, he was involved in it.

They deny kind of what his level of involvement was.

I mean, the place he works for was tied to it.

I mean that is a vulnerability for her.

They did not put Leonard on the ticket.

So I think that kind of indicates they're going to go elsewhere with the criticism.

We'll see.

Yeah.

And the other thing with this is, John James, one of the most revelatory things I thought I came out of the debates was John James is pretty good on his feet.

He does not need somebod to be his surrogate attack dog.

He can bring the fight to the opponents and he can take the heat.

Yeah.

So you don't need somebody to do the attack.

Bring somebody who's going t broaden this out a little bit.

Because when you have half, almost half as many Republicans voting in the primary as you have Democrats, you need to bring more people in.

You don't need to solidify your base.

Your base is solid and it's too small right now.

Look at you may find this in unable to be believable, but there are people in the house who simply will not do this show.

Okay, for whatever reason.

Okay.

Yeah.

Mr.

DeBoyer is, you know.

Yeah.

Where do you need me?

I'll be there.

Okay.

He's approachable.

You can get information out of him.

Okay.

And, he'll he'll be a stand up guy.

He'll be the workhorse.

And.

If he talked to Craig, he's fearless.

Okay.

And a guy who will answer reporters questions.

That's what we need.

Can you tell the story about the phone call?

Yeah, yeah, I, I had been begging him yesterday to do an interview after he got picked.

And, the signal from John James campaign was he is not going to be made available.

And he got on the phone with m anyways and did the interview.

I mean, it kind of explains who this guy is.

He is, not fearful of anything.

And I think it's a pick that I think they made a choice between trying to go toward the middl or trying to go for the right, and it's going to help with the base.

And I think it helped make the case for John James.

John James has been pretty inaccessible.

So if he has a running mate who will pick up the phone.

That could help the ticket.

But you know, that's the question.

Are they going to let Ja DeBoyer do what he is good at?

Let him be him?

Or are they going to put him kind of in the bubble and say, hey, we'll control when you talk to peopl and how much you talk to people?

Because if you do that.

Well it sounds like hes That's a great question.

Well then that becomes an internal problem when we're really getting ahead on this story.

Okay.

Its been what 24 hours?

His job is to run the Senate.

Okay.

If they see that that could be a problem.

But can someone explain to me why they don't take the candidate in the running mate and put them out and move around the state so everybody gets a look at them?

Can you explain that to me?

There's there's kind of a lull in in political coverage right now that's a free media hit.

You're going to get lots of face and news news time.

I don't know why you don't do that.

I don't know why you don't roll them out.

And why don't you tell us why you picked them so that we're not sitting here saying why I think it's this or that.

Make the statement on X. This is my running mate.

You ever try to cross-examine X?

Yeah, I mean, that that was that was really.

Well, not even a press release initially.

Yeah.

The press release didn't go out, but it tells you this was the experience in 2022 with Tudor Dixon as well.

People think politics is like West Wing and it's all chess moves plotted out.

It seems like they're picking these people at the last moment before the deadline, and then they're rushing to make a decision of how do we get this out to the public?

And it's and it's not thought out.

There's no tour.

They're giving up the press.

It's the TV hits that they could do to reach people and tell people who this person is.

Assumin that somebody in the room said, why don't we take these guys on the road?

Yeah, well.

Get them a bus.

Here's, here's Jay, you might not know him, but you're going to love hi because this is what Jay does.

And together we'r going to do this for Michigan.

None of that.

And the Democrats 7:52 in the morning.

Here's why Jay's bad bang bang bang bang bang bang.

Like, wow.

There you go.

They could have just stolen your little bio thing and just sent that out to everybody.

Like but but they do.

They need to.

Particularly when you pick somebody who doesn't have that name recognition, you need a grander rollout for this.

And to not do that is just a missed opportunity.

I want you guys to react to two spots that are out there.

There is one commercia for El-Sayed, the Good Doctor, featuring his grandparents and the.

I just got over the internet yesterday, the RGA Republican Governors Association with an ad which has Mr.

Doctor El-Sayed on one side of the screen and Jocelyn Benson on the other.

What's going on there guys?

I mean, Republicans are going to try to make this entire election about Abdul El-Sayed.

And if, if, if they're not, if they're able to do that, they might have a chance to make some gains.

If the affordability issues, the data center issues, all these real issues that are affecting people, if those went out, Democrats, you know, have hav a really good chance this fall.

Well Democrats in the primary show that they are much more enthusiastic going, at least going into the primary than Republicans are.

There were more Democrats that came out to vote.

So I think Republicans are hoping that, hey, if we can scare, you know, especially the MAGA extra right, Republicans into voting because they don't want someone named Abdul El-Sayed to go to the US Senate, the that's how we're going to do it.

That being said, tha grandparents ad is delightful.

It is genius.

You need to take that grandmother, and you need to put her in every single ad, and you need to take her on the road and have her introduce him every single time, because it gets ahead of that sort of fearmongering that the right has and it has a tendency to do, and it says, well, where is, it starts out like, is this an attack ad where is Abdul El-Sayed from?

And it's a grandparent saying he's from right here, and look at us.

Aren't we delightful, jolly people?

This is a race to who could define whom faster than the way that you want to define them.

Well, you know, I haven't seen the ad, but but what you've told m makes me worried that this is.

This is.

Look at the scary dark man with the pretty young blond woma that this is trying to demonize.

These guys make.

Do we want this guy to represent us?

But I think Michigan's a little more sophisticated than getting game by that.

And I got a call in our guest because I know he's just chomping at the bi to jump into this conversation.

Representative.

Representative welcome back to Off the Record.

So you've heard our chatte here.

What about those two ads?

What's going on with those two commercials?

I think the unfortunate reality is the Republican Party has no substance to stand on what comes to their policy.

You're not hearing them fight for anything except the attack of Abdul for how many letters or characters are in his first name?

I think there's attempt to tie Jocelyn Benson to Abdul is haphazard, and she's a wickedly popular.

I don't know if they saw she won the primary of 70% of the vote.

500,000 more Democratic primar voters than Republican voters.

I think the Republicans are just they're throwing darts at a board.

Hopefully something sticks because they don't hav a pathway to victory in November unless they use these really racially charged and, I think, bigoted stereotypes to go after people and get a base of people out there that are scared, right?

The grandmother at is genius in my opinion.

Abduls been in Michigan longer.

Ill tell you in the last ten years Ive seen Abdul more than Mike Rogers.

I think he's been in Florida for the last ten years, Mike Rogers has.

But the point is, your ad for El-Sayed is there for a major reason, which is to what.

I think it's there to personalize him and let him kno just how Michigan he is.

Right.

He was the captain of his high school football team.

He was a, public health director in Detroit.

And he grew up in this state.

Mike Rogers again, hasn't been here the last ten years.

Hes been in Florida.

The only time I think he comes in is, I would be very interested to see if he flew.

Used to fly Spirit or Delta to come to Michigan because, you know, Florida, the commute is a very interesting commute he has.

I have asked you this before but I want to do it on the show.

There was this race in the eighth district where Amir Hassan was running as a Republican for Congress.

He was endorsed by President Trump.

He lost overwhelmingly to a person named Thomas Smith who wasn't even campaigning.

Yeah.

And a lot of Republicans are telling me it's simply because Amir Hassan had a name that sounded like Arabic.

You know, and I think, I would believe those Republicans, unfortunately, the only thing more powerful than a Trump endorsement in the Republican primary is bigotry and racism.

It's just it's been a reality of fact.

If you look at how they started attacking doctor El-Sayed, right after the primary, if you look at how even they go after some of the other candidates, Garlin Gilchrist or others who are candidates of color, it's become a very cheap form of political rhetori that Republicans are relying on.

And I think they've conditioned some primary voters to look for, when they're going to the ballot box.

It's very unfortunate.

You know, we've looked at the president's rhetoric and how he's been talking about El-Sayed and other people who are running for office.

This is this is what they'r conditioning voters to look for.

It's very unfortunate.

I feel bad for Amir Hassan.

I mean, I can tell you this wed welcome him into the Democratic Party.

If he wants to find his way, and come back i and revisit some of his views.

But the issue is right now, the Republican Party.

It's a purity test of bigotry and racism.

I mean, the entire ticket.

Is there a person of color on their ticket?

I don't I don't think so.

Is there John James?

John James is.

Yeah.

Still black the last time I checked.

He still is black is.

But, you know, John James i somebody who I think you know.

Does he live in Macomb.

Does he live in Grand Rapids, right.

How often does he lean int issues that voters care about?

How often he's defending President Trump's agenda when it comes to the rhetoric on immigration and communities of color?

These are the things.

You know, I personally look at this ticket.

I just don't see much diversity in terms of lived experience.

We don't have a woman on that ticket over there.

I mean, the Democratic ticket.

The boundaries are so strong.

When you look at our canidate.

Jay DeBoyer, probably the best they could have picked for lieutenant governor.

But you look at our ticket.

You know, who we have of people who could potentially be lieutenant governor.

You have the Senate majority leaders on that list are Senate Appropriations chair.

You have Mallory McMorrow, who ran a statewide campaign.

These are some big names here of people who have been tested and are afraid to say.

I think I've seen some of them here before.

You know, just sit here and then you look at the Republicans standing there, kind of scratching for what?

What's our pathway look like?

Is there any part of you, just want to follow up.

Is there any part of you that is fearful that this strategy of vilifying Abdul and the way that they're portraying him, that that will work?

You know what I you know, you know what's going to succeed at doing, Craig this is a great question.

I represent the city of Dearborn, on Tuesday.

We have some far right clickbait.

Clowns, who are coming to th city to do a crusade at my city council meeting because they believe that something's going on in the city of Dearborn.

Where, you know, we have the Dearborn sausage and pork processing plant, and we have the Ford Motor Company headquarters, and we have everything that you could classif as an American city would have.

And you have these people coming here fully armed to come and do a crusade, whatever the heck that means.

And so I think what they're succeeding at is fermenting, hate fermenting racism, fermenting, division of neighborhoods and communities.

That's what they're succeeding at doing.

And I think of anybody that wants to be, a public official in this state.

They should be condemning that, to be honest, because a city like mine, police department like mine, is being stressed every single day.

I was on a call last night with my police chief and my mayor about these types of issues, right.

We have another guy from Alabama.

This is true, by the way.

Wants to bring a thousand pigs and release them into the streets as if that does something right.

But so what are they succeeding that I don't think electorally there's a pathway there.

Voters looking for substance.

How many characters are in Abdul's name?

Or in Jocelyn's name is irrelevant to the ability to bring down grocery prices.

It doesn't explain why we're in a war with Iran.

It doesn't explain why the president, his family, have made $1 billion.

It doesn't explain why Mike Rogers has lived in Florida for the last decade.

All distracts from the fact that they have no substance.

I'm curious, because you got you brought up the, lieutenant governor, race.

The Democrats haven't picked one yet.

Who would you like to see as lieutenant governor?

I like all the names I've seen so far.

I'll be honest.

I've worked with them on some capacity.

They all bring a different perspective to the ticket.

They all bring a different level of, I think, personality, obviously, you know, Winnie Brinks from the west side of the state.

Chair Anthony from central, you know, from the from Lansing area, formidable negotiator, just a great, I think, leader in a lot of ways.

Mallory McMorrow I, I've grown to really appreciate work with her.

All the options are great.

I think what you're seeing is the Democratic Party is very unified in winning in November, and it's rallying around an agenda of affordability.

Jocelyn Benson, I think, is going to be a very strong, you know, again, if you notice to, you know, Mike Rogers hasn't been this h this guy hasn't even committed any debates here last night.

Again, I think it's the layovers and the flights that hurt the line up at least coming from Florida and back.

Right?

I mean, and maybe he' waiting for a corporate lobbyist or to check for him.

I don't know, but, you know, you look at these guys, they're all just hiding.

And every single one of the names we have that we're putting forward has either there's been shows like this, those media interviews are available.

You know, I think the Republicans are scratching the barrel here.

At one of the places where it seems like, Democrats could lose some votes to Republicans.

Democratic votes who had transferred to Republicans is over the issue of Israel and Gaza.

And I've heard Democrats say, you know what?

I'm open to, Abdul El-Sayed, even though I don't like his position on some of these things.

But he's he's got a he's got to walk away from Hassan Piker.

He's got to put some space between himself and Hassan Piker.

Do you see him doing something like do you think that's a smart move for him to do?

Here's what I'll say.

Right now in the climate we are in, and rhetoric is very important.

Doctor Abdul El-Sayeds word I think historically have been very measured when it comes to this issue.

And he's very accurate.

When you talk about the genocide that's happening in Gaza, when you talk about, I mean, the simple fact that billions of dollars are being spent over there when we have an affordability crisis at home, whether it's housing or groceries, the price of gasoline, I think these are, you know very important things to watch.

I'll just also remind people that this is a great point.

People are quick to point out Hassan Piker and Hassan Piker has comments I don't agree with.

But there and especially on the Republican side, I'm not saying you're doing this, but the Republicans failed to even bring up the fact that we have a president in the white House who met with Nick Fuentes, a known Nazi, a white nationalist, who goes out there and says Charlottesville had fine people on both sides and they're chanting with tiki torches.

You will not replace us carrying Nazi flags.

And so they'll go and embrace and hug a guy like that.

Our president, and hold on to him.

A guy who's on the Epstein island, who's on that's Epstein list, who has all these things.

But then they're so quick to jump on a guy like Hassan Piker, who's a Twitch streamer, mind you, he's not a public official.

He's not soliciting votes.

He's over here.

I don't agree with a lot of what he says.

I don't think of Abdul, Abdul is his own person.

But then you get these Republicans who just will do anything for that Trump endorsement, Trump's validation.

Dont you see the proble where Democrats can beat Trump over the head with Nick Fuentes and Republicans are going to try and beat Abdul El-Sayed over the head with Hassan Piker.

Why not say, you know what?

You know, we're moving on from that.

I think right now the focus is definitely Abdul and Mike Rogers being able to get on.

Maybe they should be debating each other.

Mike Rogers should be taking that to test with Abdul, but I think he's hiding.

Mike Rogers is going to say Hassan Piker.

Hassan Piker.

Hassan Piker.

Hassan Piker.

Over and over again.

And I think I'm going to say money out of politics.

Money in your pockets.

Medicare for all.

I think when you talk to the average voter, like, you know, we talked about it earlier about Jay DeBoyer.

So this is a guy who is he right?

Ask the 11, 10 million people that live in the stat of Michigan who Hassan Piker is.

They're not going to know who he is and is being fair because like his rhetoric his comments, that to the side.

But a lot more people know wh he is today than knew who he was six months ago.

I'm elated at the idea that Republicans are going to waste millions of dollars building this guy's name I.D.

up while we have an election in 83 days, and Abdul El-Sayed just survived $100 million outside spending.

I just I think, again, nowhere in this conversation we're having is what Republicans are campaigning on.

What is their agenda?

Oh, I'm not Hassan Piker.

But you would not encourage one of your vulnerable House Democratic member to campaign with Hassan Piker.

I would not.

If Jamie Churches calls you up and says, hey, Hassan Piker wants to come to down river to campaign with me, you would say.

I would say, Jamie, you're the downriver representative, you know, in this area a lot better than me.

But she needs your advice.

What's your advice, thats not advice.

If youre going for my advice.

Here's my thing.

Right?

I think in a seat like that, with a community like that, maybe Hassan Piker isn't the best person to bring down the right.

I think that's the range, though.

When you're doing big tent politics, there's a big tent for a reason.

There's a lot of voices in that town.

So how serious is it that your candidate lost Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb County?

Last time I checke that's the pathway to victory.

I think I Democratic primary, it's different than in November, right?

If you look at you know, what I anticipate happening is that when I've talked to the good doctor.

Is that a serious problem or not?

I think it's a problem thats going to be worked through.

Right.

It's not actually a problem.

I wouldn't call it a problem.

I think it's just electoral math that is getting sorted out.

And in a Primary.

Wait a minute this guy lost those three major counties and it's not a problem?

In a primary, I mean, who won the who won at Wayne County in the Republican primary?

Do we know?

Well, I. Mean, who won Oakland?

I mean, these are Democratic strongholds that are the center of the Democratic debate around what type of direction.

So it not the canary in the coal mine?

I don't think so at all.

No.

If you look at Kent County, he won county overwhelmingly.

Ryan Kent County used to be this, purplish blue spot of the state.

Right.

That would decide kind of th bellwether of where we're going.

And Abdul won that, I thin on a margin of 2 to 1, almost.

What does he have to do?

Because he did terribly in Detroit, in additio to not being the top vote getter in Wayne, Oakland and Macomb what does he have to do to get those Democrats who voted for Stevens and McMorrow to say, you know what, I'm going with the doc now.

This is a this is a great question.

I think what you've seen on the on the Democratic side is this, this really large attempt to unify the party.

Right?

The day after, there was the unity breakfast followed by a unity rally.

I think there's a lot of listening and learning, bringing these voices in.

I give credit, actually, to Congressman Stevens, who has made it clear she wants them to win this race and beat Mike Rogers.

I think we're at this point, this this we're in this purgatory almost before we see full launched campaigning for this U.S.

Senate seat, where I think you'll see names like Obama, like even Detroit, Mary Sheffield.

I can't speak for her, but I know there's conversations that are probably happening there where Wayne County Executive Warre Evans is somebody who's endorsed Abdul El-Sayed So I think what has to happen.

It didnt make a big difference in the primary.

But I think it may, it kept him very competitive.

If you look at the margin that Haley won Wayne by, it wasn't this like, you know off the rails breakaway victory.

She won it.

Yes.

That she won it in a margin of 3 to 1.

2 to 1.

No.

But what I think is going to happen in the Democratic Party right now is we're unifying.

We're so unified we're ready to win in November.

We know this is our election to win, and we all have a platform of affordability that I just think the Republicans are again, they don't have an answer for.

What do you want to be when you grow up?

Well, I want to be invited to Off the Record.

I want to b known as the guy who always came every time I was invited.

Alright lets score it one for you and zero for us.

Thanks for showing up.

We appreciate it.

Also thanks to our great panel.

Thank you for tuning in.

We'll see more Off the Record right here next week.

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Production of Off the Record is made possible in par by Bellwether Public Relations, a full servic strategic communications agency partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and issue advocacy.

Learn more at bellwether pr.com.

For more Off the Record, visit wkar.org.

Michigan public television stations have contributed to the production costs of Off the Record.