>>> NOW, IN THE U.S., INTERNATIONAL AID IS ALSO ON TRUMP'S FOREIGN-POLICY CHOPPING BLOCK.

FOR NOW, A FEDERAL JUDGE HAS PAUSED A FUNDING FREEZE ON USAID.

TECH GIANT BILL GATES JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS HOW THE GLOBAL FIGHT AGAINST DISEASE COULD BE AFFECTED BY THE SWEEPING CUTS, AS WELL AS HIS NEW MEMOIR, "SOURCE CODE."

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

BILL GATES, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS I LOVE ABOUT THIS BOOK OF YOURS IS YOU DIG DEEP INTO YOUR CHILDHOOD, VERY REFLECTIVE.

YOU EVEN TALK ABOUT YOUR QUIRKY PERSONALITY, YOU GET INTO DETAILS WHEN YOU WERE YOUNG, OBSESSIVE IN YOUR OWN MIND.

YOU SAY, "IF I HAD BEEN BORN NOW, I WOULD PROBABLY BE DIAGNOSED WITH AUTISM SPECTRUM."

A LOT OF PEOPLE I WRITE ABOUT SEEM TO HAVE THOSE TRAITS, GREAT INNOVATORS.

ELON MUSK AND OTHERS.

TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU THINK THAT THAT WAS A SUPERPOWER FOR YOU?

>> IT CERTAINLY HELPED ME IN TERMS OF MY SOCIAL SKILLS.

I WAS LATE TO DEVELOP.

BUT, IT WAS A BIG ASSET IN TERMS OF TAKING SOMETHING I WAS INTERESTED IN AND BEING ABLE TO PUT A VERY LONG HOURS INTO IT, WHETHER IT WAS MATHEMATICS TO BEGIN WITH OR SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT.

I GOT A LOT OF FEEDBACK, I GOT A LOT OF EXPOSURE.

SO, BY THE END OF THIS BOOK, EVEN THOUGH I AM STILL QUITE YOUNG, THAT THAT DEEP INTEREST MADE ME A SOFTWARE EXPERT.

>> YOU CALL YOUR BOOK, "SOURCE CODE," AND IT IS A WONDERFUL TITLE BECAUSE IT IS A NICE METAPHOR FOR THE INPUT YOU GET AS A COULD BECOME PART OF YOUR OPERATING SYSTEM.

LET ME ASK ABOUT ONE OR TWO OF THOSE INPUTS.

ONE OF THEM IS WHEN YOUR PARENTS BRING YOU TO A PSYCHOLOGIST, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT ACTUALLY THE NICEST KID IN THE FAMILY.

AND, THE PSYCHOLOGIST GIVES YOU A SIMPLE PIECE OF ADVICE, WHICH IS, I THINK, "YOU ARE A LUCKY KID."

TELL ME HOW THAT INFORMED YOUR SOURCE CODE.

>> I WAS USING A LOT OF MY MENTAL ENERGY TO SORT OF PLAGUE MY PARENTS ABOUT THE ARBITRARINESS OF THEIR RULES AND FEELING LIKE, OKAY, THAT WAS SOME GREAT THING THAT I ONCE ABLE TO MAKE THINGS A LITTLE HARD FOR THEM.

AND, THE PERSON I SPENT TIME WITH THAT SAID, NO, YOU HAVE AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE.

IT IS NOT GOING TO HELP YOU IN THE LONG RUN.

THEY ARE REALLY ON YOUR SIDE.

SO, THAT WAS WONDERFUL THAT HE CONVINCED ME TO REDIRECT MY ENERGY AND THINK OF MY PARENTS AS MORE POSITIVE SO, IT WORKED BETTER AFTER HE HAD FLIPPED MY FOCUS.

>> YOU HAVE A SORT OF HUMILITY IN THIS BOOK.

THERE IS A WONDERFUL THING BENJAMIN FRANKLIN SAID, WHAT HELPS WITH COMMUNITY IS REALIZING YOU HAVE BEEN WRONG AT TIMES.

DETERMINE WHAT REALIZATIONS YOU HAD GROWING UP THAT YOU WERE WRONG ABOUT AND HOPE TO CHANGE THE WAY YOU LOOK AT THINGS.

>> WELL, I DEFINITELY, WHEN I FIRST STARTED WORKING WITH OTHER PEOPLE, I WAS ONLY GOOD AT WORKING WITH PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF.

YOU KNOW, I BELIEVED IN LONG HOURS AND I WAS PRETTY HARSH.

SO, EVEN IN THE EARLY MICROSOFT DAYS, WHERE I HAD 20 EMPLOYEES, FIGURING OUT, OKAY, JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE SMART AT PROGRAMMING DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE GOOD AT OTHER THINGS, IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE GOOD AT MANAGING PROGRAMMERS.

CONSTANTLY SAYING THERE ARE DIFFERENT TYPES OF INTELLIGENCE AND I HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO WORK WITH ALL OF THOSE, EVEN THOUGH MY ONLY NATURAL ABILITY IS WORKING WITH HARD-CORE ENGINEERS.

>> WERE THERE ANY THINGS YOU WANTED TO MAKE GOOD FOR PEOPLE THAT THE PROFESSOR THAT YOU TOLD HIM HE WAS WRONG AND OTHERS, WHERE YOU SAY I HAVE TO MAKE IT GOOD ON THESE FOLKS?

>> THERE WERE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHEN I WAS WRITING THE BOOK, I WAS SAD TO HEAR WERE NO LONGER ALIVE LIKE ONE OF THE PROFESSORS WHO HAD ACTUALLY BEEN NICER TOWARD ME WHEN I GOT IN TROUBLE THAN I HAD REALIZED, HAD WRITTEN A LOT OF VERY POSITIVE THINGS ABOUT -- >> WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, HOW DID YOU GET IN TROUBLE?

>> I WAS USING THE HARVARD COMPUTERS A LOT.

THERE WAS A QUESTION AROUND THE WAY I WAS USING THEM.

HADLEY AGREED THAT OR NOT?

>> YOU WERE WRITING CODE FOR THE FIRST PERSONAL COMPUTER, RIGHT?

>> EXACTLY.

THIS BASIC INTERPRETER, WHICH I PUT IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN.

BUT, THEY DID, IN THE END, ADMONISH ME FOR BRINGING A NONESTUDENT, PAUL ALLEN, MY COFOUNDER INTO THE COMPUTER ROOM, WHICH WAS QUITE FAIR.

FOR A WHILE, IT LOOKED LIKE I MIGHT REALLY GET IN TROUBLE AND I HADN'T REALIZED THIS PROFESSOR HAD VERY MUCH COME TO BAT FOR ME.

>> YOU HAD A THREE HOUR DINNER WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP RIGHT AFTER HE WAS ELECTED.

I REMEMBER WE TALKED ABOUT IT A LITTLE AND YOU SAID YOU TRIED TO TALK HIM INTO KEEPING SOME OF THE FOREIGN AID AND ALL YOU REALLY GOT WAS THAT HE REALLY LISTENED TO YOU AND SAID MAYBE CALL YOU BEFORE HE MADE A FINAL DECISION.

TELL ME WHAT THE UPSHOT IS BECAUSE HE SEEMS TO, ALONG WITH ELON MUSK, PRETTY MUCH DECIMATED USAID.

>> I AM HOPEFUL THAT SOME SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF THAT CAN BE REVERSED AND PRESERVED.

ELON MUSK, OF ALL THE ELIMINATION HE HAS DONE, 99% OF IT ARE THESE EMPLOYEES OF USAID, WHO WORK OVERSEAS IN VERY TOUGH CIRCUMSTANCES AND THEY ALLOWED THE U.S., IN ADDITION TO OUR MILITARY POWER, TO GET OUT AND HELP OUT WITH FAMINE AND HIV MEDICINES, INCLUDING THIS PROGRAM CALLED PEPFAR.

I KNOW A LOT OF THOSE WORKERS.

I KNOW THAT WORK .

A VERY, VERY HIGH PERCENTAGE OF IT IS STUFF EVERY TAXPAYER WOULD BE PROUD OF.

THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF A DISCUSSION THAT ELON MUSK I THINK SAID, OKAY, WE MADE A MISTAKE, WE WENT OVERBOARD.

NOW, WHAT IS THE EQUILIBRIUM?

HOW MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE CAN WE KEEP SO WE CAN CONTINUE TO SAVE TENS OF MILLIONS OF LIVES?

>> HOW MANY LIVES COULD BE LOST IF WE DON'T RECTIFY THIS?

>> IT IS IN THE MILLIONS.

PEPFAR HAS KEPT OVER 20 MILLION PEOPLE ALIVE WITH HIV DRUGS, STARTED BY PRESIDENT BUSH, AND CONTINUED ON A BIPARTISAN BASIS LITERALLY UP TO THE DAY THAT ELON MUSK DECIDED THAT IT WASN'T A GOOD ORGANIZATION.

>> IT SEEMS ALMOST THAT IT IS WORST THAT AND NEVER HAVING DONE IT AT ALL, IF YOU PUT PEOPLE ON HIV AND AIDS DRUGS AND THEN, ALL OF A SUDDEN, ONE DAY THEY DISAPPEAR.

>> I THINK WHOEVER WAS DOING THESE SOFTWARE QUERIES AND FINDING LESS THAN 1% OF THESE THINGS THAT THEY WERE KIND OF, IN MANY CASES, INCORRECTLY SAYING OUTRAGEOUS THINGS ABOUT, I DON'T THINK THEY REALLY GOT THE PICTURE OF THAT HERE ON THE FIELD.

KEEPING PEOPLE ALIVE FROM HIV, THE U.S. HAS DONE A GREAT JOB.

EVEN IF WE HAVE TO REDUCE THAT SOME, AND ABRUPT WITHDRAWAL IS A TERRIBLE THING.

>> BUT, THERE IS A LARGER PICTURE, WHICH IS I DON'T THINK PEOPLE UNDERSTAND EITHER HOW MUCH WE DO IN FOREIGN AID OR EVEN WHY WE DO FOREIGN AID.

SO, LEAVE ASIDE THE DETAILS, WHY SHOULD WE BE GIVING FOREIGN AID?

>> WELL, MOST PEOPLE, WHEN THEY ARE ASKED, THINK OF THAT FOREIGN AID IS A BIG PART OF THE BUDGET, LIKE 5%, AND WE THINK IT SHOULD BE MORE LIKE 2%, WHEN IN FACT, IT IS ACTUALLY 1%.

THERE IS THE UPLIFTING ELEMENT, THAT IF THESE COUNTRIES CAN GET OUT OF THE POVERTY TRAP, THEN THEY PARTICIPATE IN DOING BUSINESS WITH THE U.S., THEY HAVE GRATITUDE TOWARD THE U.S.

EVEN BEYOND THE MORAL REASON, MAINTAINING STABILITY, REDUCING ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SOMETHING IN COMMON THAT WE CAN HELP THESE COUNTRIES.

NOW, THERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF DO THEY FAVOR CHINA OVER US?

AND, BECAUSE OF THIS PEPFAR, THEY HAVE BEEN VERY MUCH POSITIVE TOWARD THE UNITED STATES.

>> MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, WHEN THE U.S.

PULLED OUT OF THE PARIS CLIMATE ACCORD RECENTLY SAID HE'S GOING TO HELP MAKE UP FOR IT.

IS THERE ANYTHING THE GATES FOUNDATION CAN DO IN THIS REGARD?

>> USAID WAS GIVEN OUT OVER 40 BILLION A YEAR.

SO, THE GATES FOUNDATION, EVEN AS THE LARGEST PHILANTHROPY, IS ONLY ABOUT 9 BILLION A YEAR.

THERE ARE SOME REALLY UNUSUAL THINGS LIKE MEDICAL TRIALS THAT ARE BEING INTERRUPTED, THAT, THAT IS ACTUALLY QUITE UNETHICAL.

WE MAY STEP UP IN A VERY MINOR WAY.

BUT, THERE IS NOTHING OUT THERE THAT CAN REPLACE THINGS LIKE PEPFAR OR THE PRESIDENT'S MALARIA INITIATIVE.

THESE ARE VERY TIGHT TIMES FOR ALL DONORS.

OTHER RICH COUNTRIES ARE MORE GENEROUS THAN WE ARE AS A PERCENTAGE OF THEIR ECONOMY.

THE AFRICAN COUNTRIES ARE VERY INDEBTED.

IF THIS MONEY GOES AWAY, THERE WILL BE DRAMATIC CONSEQUENCES.

>> ROBERT KENNEDY JUNIOR, SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, IN HIS BOOK, HE ACCUSED YOU AND DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, OF, "A HISTORIC COUP D'ITAT AGAINST WESTERN DEMOCRACY," AND, ALL THE THINGS, FROM VACCINES TO COVID- 19 TO THE PANDEMIC THAT YOU HAVE BEEN INTERESTED IN, HOW IS THIS GOING TO AFFECT YOUR ABILITY TO DO WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN DOING AT THE GATES FOUNDATION?

>> WELL, THE GATES FOUNDATION IS GOING TO WORK WITH THE GOVERNMENT.

YOU KNOW, THAT NIH IS THE BEST MEDICAL RESEARCH ORGANIZATION IN THE WORLD, JUST LIKE USAID IS THE BEST AID ORGANIZATION.

AND, WE HAVE DONE A LOT WITH THEM.

THE PIPELINE OF INNOVATIONS THAT I GOT PRESIDENT TRUMP ENTHUSED ABOUT, INCLUDING THINGS LIKE EVENTUALLY HAVING GENETIC EDITS FOR AN HIV SURE, THAT WILL BE UNDER ROBERT KENNEDY.

I AM GOING TO GO MEET WITH HIM AND EXPLAIN, YOU KNOW, WHY -- >> HAS HE AGREED TO MEET WITH YOU?

>> I THINK IT IS VERY, VERY LIKELY THAT WE WILL GET A MEETING LATER THIS MONTH.

I HOPE SO.

I WILL BE REACHING OUT TO HIM.

>> I NOTICED AT THE INAUGURATION, AS I'M SURE YOU DID, THAT ALL THE TECH PROS ARE THERE IN THE FRONT ROW.

THEY USED IT TO BE TECH NERDS.

NOW THEY ARE INVITED TO THE FRONT ROW OF THE INAUGURATION.

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE CULTURE TO BECOME SO POOR AND WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THEM ALL BEING IN GOVERNMENT NOW?

>> WELL, THE PROFIT STREAMS OF THESE TECH COMPANIES ARE PHENOMENAL.

THESE ARE THE HIGHEST VALUE COMPANIES IN THE WORLD.

AND, OF COURSE, THE GOVERNMENT, WHETHER IT IS THROUGH THE SOFTWARE THAT THEY BY OR AI REGULATION OR ANTITRUST, THEY EFFECT THESE COMPANIES A LOT.

UNLIKE ONE I NAOVELY THOUGHT MICROSOFT DIDN'T NEED TO BE IN WASHINGTON, D.C. AND THAT WAS THE GREAT THING ABOUT THIS COUNTRY, NOW ALL THOSE COMPANIES HAS A HUGE PRESENCE.

SO, YOU KNOW THEY ARE PLAYING A FOR PROFIT GAME.

I'M NO LONGER IN THAT.

I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY THEY ARE BEING VERY RESPONSIVE IN TRYING TO CONNECT.

>> DO YOU THINK THERE IS SOME DANGER OF THAT TYPE OF MENTALITY COMING INTO THE GOVERNMENT?

>> WELL, THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO BE INDEPENDENT AND WORK ON BEHALF OF THE TAXPAYER AND THE CONSUMER.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A QUESTION AS A BIG BUSINESS AND GOVERNMENT ARE ALIGNED.

IT IS EARLY DAYS HERE TO SEE HOW IT GETS MANAGED.

YOU KNOW, ISSUES LIKE ANTITRUST AND GOVERNMENT PURCHASING, AI REGULATION.

I WOULD SAY I FIND IT FASCINATING.

THEY ARE KIND OF COMPETING TO GET THE MOST ATTENTION.

>> WHEN YOU CAME DOWN HERE TO NEW ORLEANS A COUPLE YEARS AGO AND SPOKE AT TULANE TO MY STUDENTS, YOU TALK ABOUT OPENAI, CHATGPT HAD JUST COME ALONG, AND YOU SAID YOU HAD GONE BACK AND WORKED WITH MICROSOFT TEAMS TO EMBED AI INTO IT.

HOW HAS THAT GONE, WHAT IS GOING TO BE THE THING WE SEE COMING OUT OF THAT?

>> WELL, THE LAST THREE YEARS, SINCE THE CHATGPT LARGE LANGUAGE MODEL, AND MANY COMPETITORS HAVE COME ALONG, THE PROGRESS HAS BEEN PRETTY AMAZING.

THEY STILL CAN'T SOLVE ALL THE PROBLEMS.

THEY STILL HAVE RELIABILITY ISSUES.

BUT, THE PERFORMANCE AND THAT RELIABILITY IS ON A TRACK THAT IT IS GOING TO BE PROFOUND HOW THEY CAN INCREASE FIRST WHITE- COLLAR PRODUCTIVITY, THEN AS THE ROBOT TO GET BETTER, ALL OF THEM ECONOMY, INCLUDING BLUE- COLLAR AS WELL.

SO, FOR ME, I ADVISE MICROSOFT AND I TAKE THAT KNOWLEDGE SO THE GATES FOUNDATION CAN GET THESE TECHNOLOGIES TO STUDENTS IN THE INNER CITY IN THE U.S. AND TO THE DEVELOPING COUNTRIES, PARTICULARLY IN AFRICA, AND NOT HAVE IT BE A 20 YEAR DELAY BETWEEN USAGE IN THE RICH WORLD VERSUS THE DEVELOPING WORLD.

>> YOU HAVE BEEN AN ADVISOR WITH OPENAI AND ITS RELATIONSHIP WITH MICROSOFT.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF ELON MUSK'S SURPRISE BID TO TRY TO TAKE BACK OPENAI FROM SAM ALTMAN, AND MAYBE FROM THE OWNERSHIP STAKE OF MICROSOFT?

>> AI IS ABOUT THE MOST COMPETITIVE SPACE I HAVE EVER SEEN.

WHETHER IT IS INDEPENDENT COMPANIES LIKE ELON MUSK HAS HIS, XAI, THERE ARE MANY OTHERS.

GOOGLE AND MICROSOFT ARE THE TWO BIGGEST COMPANIES INVESTING NOT JUST TENS BUT LITERALLY HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS.

I THINK SOME OF THESE MANEUVERS ARE DRIVEN BY THE PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS, BUT OVERALL, I'D NEVER SEEN ANYTHING MORE COMPETITIVE, WHICH IS PARTLY WHY THE PROGRESS WE ARE SEEING IS SO RAPID.

>> WAY BACK IN 1997, IN A PREVIOUS CENTURY, I INTERVIEWED YOU FOR "TIME MAGAZINE," AND I ASKED YOU IF YOU THOUGHT THERE WAS SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT BETWEEN THE SOFTWARE OF COMPUTERS AND OUR CARBON- BASED SYSTEM AND WHAT WE CALL CONSCIOUSNESS.

I WENT BACK AND LOOKED AT IT AND HERE IS WHAT YOU TOLD ME.

HE SAID, "I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANYTHING UNIQUE ABOUT HUMAN INTELLIGENCE.

ALL THE NEURONS IN THE BRAIN THAT MAKE UP PERCEPTIONS AND EMOTIONS OPERATE IN A BINARY FASHION.

WE CAN SOMEDAY REPLICATE THAT ON A MACHINE."

THAT WAS BEFORE YOU RAISED THREE KIDS, YOU WATCHED THEM LOOK AT YOUR FACE AND RECOGNIZE IT.

THAT WAS BEFORE CHATGPT CAME ALONG.

LET ME ASK YOU AGAIN SORT OF THE SAME QUESTION.

IS THERE SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT ABOUT THE WAY WE HUMANS CAN ENGINEER AI AND THE WAY THAT MAJOR OR NATURE'S GOD CREATED THE HUMAN MIND?

>> WELL, CERTAINLY, THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

BUT, IF THE QUESTION IS, SAY, TAKE A MEDICAL DIAGNOSIS OR A ROBOT DOING FACTORY WORK, WILL THE QUALITY OF THAT FACTORY WORK OR THAT MEDICAL DIAGNOSIS FROM THE SOFTWARE EXCEED HUMAN CAPACITY?

THE ANSWER IS YES, IN TIME IT WILL.

YOU WILL BE MISSING THE WONDERFUL HUMANITY AND HUMANS WILL STILL, WITH THEIR EXTRA TIME, CHOOSE TO INTERACT WITH EACH OTHER, BY AND LARGE.

CONSCIOUSNESS PROBABLY WON'T BE THERE.

BUT, ANYTHING THAT IS UTILITARIAN, THE AI WILL EVENTUALLY SURPASS HUMAN CAPABILITY.

>> YOU RIGHT IN THE END OF THE BOOK THAT PIECING TOGETHER MEMORIES "HELPS ME BETTER UNDERSTAND MYSELF."

WHAT WAS THE MOST INTERESTING SELF REVELATION THAT PIECING TOGETHER MEMORIES BROUGHT?

>> IT IS STUNNING TO ME HOW LUCKY I WAS WITH MY DAD, MY MOM, THE TIME I WAS BORN, THAT MANY TIMES WHERE I WOULD BE EXPOSED AND VERY GOOD SOFTWARE PEOPLE, ADULTS WOULD GUIDE ME ON HOW TO IMPROVE, JUST A NUMBER OF THOSE THINGS THAT CAME TOGETHER THAT MEANT AT THE END OF THIS BOOK, WHICH IS THE START OF MICROSOFT, THAT I WAS IN A POSITION TO DO THAT SOFTWARE AND HAVING THE WORLD'S BEST SOFTWARE FACTORY COULD MAKE A HUGE CONTRIBUTION.

MY AMAZEMENT, MY GRATITUDE, MY REFLECTING BACK ON FRIENDS AND FAMILY WAS A VERY FULFILLING EXERCISE THAT HUMBLED ME IN TERMS OF ALL OF THE INCREDIBLE THINGS I'VE GOTTEN TO EXPERIENCE.

>> AMAZING, GRATITUDE, HUMBLING.

DO YOU THINK A MACHINE WILL EVER BE ABLE TO GIVE THAT FEELING?

>> NO, FEELING IS AN INTRINSIC THING THAT WE UNDERSTAND.

THAT IS LIKE CONSCIOUSNESS.

IT WILL BE ABLE TO WRITE WORDS LIKE THAT BUT NOT EXPERIENCE THE REAL HUMAN EMOTION THAT I DID.

>> BILL GATES, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU.