♪♪ >> Cathy: WHILE THE POWER STANDOFF IN THE STATE HOUSE CONTINUES IN MINNESOTA IT WAS INAUGURATION WEEK IN D. CONSIDER.

NOT SURPRISINGLY, THE FIRST DAYS OF THE SECOND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAVE BEEN CONTROVERSIAL, FILLED WITH CONTENTIOUS CONFIRMATION HEARINGS AND A FLURRY OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS THAT HAVE ALREADY ELICITED LAWSUITS.

HERE TO HELP US SORT THROUGH IT ALL IS A COUCH OF POLITICAL SCIENTISTS.

LARRY JACOBS HEADS THE CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF POLITICS AND GOVERNANCE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA'S HUMPHREY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS.

DAVID SCHULTZ TEACHES POLITICAL SCIENCE AT HAMLINE UNIVERSITY AND IS AN ADJUNCT PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF ST. THOMAS.

CINDY RUGELEY HEADS THE POLITICAL SCIENCE PROGRAM AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA'S DULUTH CAMPUS.

GOOD TO SEE EVERYBODY.

GOSH, WHAT SHOULD WE TALK ABOUT?

UM, LET'S BEGIN WITH PROFESSOR SCHULTZ.

>> OKAY.

>> Cathy: SO THERE WERE CONCERNS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WOULD WEAPONIZE THE PRESIDENCY.

GIVEN THE SLEW OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS THAT HE SIGNED EARLIER IN THE WEEK HOW WOULD YOU CHARACTERIZE HOW HE'S WIELDING POWER AT THIS POINT?

>> WELL, REMEMBER WHAT HE WAS RUNNING FOR OFFICE HE SAID HE WANTED TO BE A DICTATOR A DAY OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, SO HE'S USING A LOT OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS BUT IF YOU LOOK AT A LOT OF THE EXECUTIVE ORDERS, CERTAINLY NOT ALL OF THEM, SOME OF THEM ARE BEING CHALLENGED, SOME OF THEM ARE PROBABLY GOING TO BE DECLARED UNCONSTITUTIONAL, SOME OF THEM ARE PROCESS, SOME ON SUBSTANCE.

BUT SOME OF THEM ALSO ARE GOING TO BE, WHAT, THEY'RE NOT REALLY SAYING ANYTHING, THEY'RE JUST SORT OF LIKE MORE LIKE PRESS RELEASES.

BUT THERE ARE A CORE THAT ARE IMPORTANT OUT THERE AND WE NEED TO SORT ALL OF THOSE OUT AT THIS POINT.

ONE OF THE THINGS I WANT TO POINT OUT IN TRUMP'S FIRST TERM, I'LL CALL IT TRUMP 1.0, THIS IS 2.0.

GOING BACK TO ROOSEVELT, TRUMP PRESIDENCY HAD THE WORST RECORD IN COURT OF ANY PRESIDENT IN THE LAST 80 OR 90 YEARS.

EXPECT TO SEE THE SAME THING HAPPENING THIS TIME.

>> Eric: WHAT SECRETARY OF STATE ROLE OF THE COURTS GOING TO END UP BEING?

QUITE ACTIVE I WOULD GUESS.

>> I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE BUSY COUPLE OF YEARS.

I REALLY DO.

I THINK TO BEGIN WITH I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE VERY DIFFICULT TO SAY THAT YOU COULD DO AWAY WITH BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP.

AND SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS HAVE EXTENDED THE BOUNDS OF WHAT AN EXECUTIVE ORDER IS SUPPOSED TO BE, AND SO I THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE SOME PROBLEMS WITH THAT.

AND SO, YEAH, HE -- AND HE'S ISSUED A TON OF THEM.

A LOT OF THEM HAVE EFFECT ON MINNESOTA.

I FULLY EXPECT THAT THE BLATNIK BRIDGE IS GOING TO GET TAKEN CARE OF BUT WE MIGHT HAVE ANOTHER PRESS CONFERENCE WITH DIFFERENT PEOPLE IN IT.

THINGS LIKE THE BLATNIK BRIDGE AND THEY SHUT DOWN FOREIGN AID.

SO THE WHOLE THING WITH N. I.H.

COULD BE A BUGABOO IF IT'S NOT REASONED IN.

>> Eric: IT DOES MAKE THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SEEM EVEN MORE SLEEPILY, DOESN'T IT?

HE'S OFF TO FAST START.

>> THEY'RE HOPING TO PASS MAYBE ONE LARGE BILL BUT EVEN THAT'S GOING TO BE DIFFICULT.

THE HOUSE IS HISTORICALLY SMALL IN TERMS OF THE REPUBLICAN MAJORITIES.

>> Eric: GOT TWO VOTES TO SPARE.

>> HE'S GOT TWO VOTES BECAUSE THEY'VE HAD THREE REPUBLICANS DEPART, AND THEN YOU'VE GOT A VERY SMALL MAJORITY IN THE SENATE.

AND YOU'VE GOT DIVISIONS WITH WITHIN BOTH.

THEY CAN'T AGREE ON THE CORE ELEMENTS OF LEGISLATION.

SO I THINK YOU CAN LOOK THIS SLOUGH THE EXECUTIVE ORDERS AS A SYMPTOM OF THE FACT THAT DONALD TRUMP IS UNABLE TO PASS MUCH IN CONGRESS, HE'S VULNERABLE IN TERMS OF BEING ABLE TO EXERCISE POWER.

WHEREAS JOE BIDEN, HE WAS LAYING OUT LEGISLATION.

THEY PASSED QUITE A BIT.

>> IF I CAN ACTUALLY SOUND LIKE A POLITICAL SCIENTIST FOR A SECOND.

WITH REAL DATA, FOR EXAMPLE.

WE LOOK AT BY THE WAY THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE NUMBER OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS BEING ISSUED AND THE AMOUNT OF LEGISLATION BEING ADOPTED IN CONGRESS OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS, WHAT WE'RE FINDING AS CONGRESS HAS BECOME MORE POLARIZED, NOT A SURPRISE, PRESIDENTS HAVE TRIED TO GOVERN MORE BY EXECUTIVE ORDERS.

AND WE ALSO KNOW IN THE PROCESS HERE THAT HE SUPREME COURT HAS TRIMMED BACK ON EXECUTIVED ON POWER IN THE LAST FEW YEARS.

AND SO THAT'S GOING TO BE INTERESTING TO SEE.

>> Cathy: WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE PARDON SAY FOR THE J6-ERS, COULD THAT BOOMERANG SOMEHOW ON THE PRESIDENT?

GIVEN THE PUSHBACK THAT HE'S RECEIVING ON THAT ALREADY.

>> I THINK ONE OF THE REALLY IMPORTANT THEMES WE'RE GOING TO BE TRACK ALONG THE CONTRADICTIONS IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

YOU NOW, HE RAN AS A LAW AND ORDER PRESIDENT, AND NOW HE'S LETTING PEOPLE GO THAT THE POLICE ARE SHOCKED AT.

HE TALKED ABOUT BEING ONE OF THE PEOPLE, REPRESENTING WORKING CLASS FOLKS, AND THERE HE'S GOT ELON MUSK WITH AN OFFICE IN THE WHITE HOUSE, AND STEVE BANNON'S ATTACKING HIM BECAUSE OF HIS IMMIGRATION POLICIES.

JUST A LOT OF CONTRADICTIONS HERE THAT ARE GOING TO GET MORE AND MORE ERRING, AND I THINK WILL DIMINISH DONALD TRUMP IN TIME.

THIS WAS JUST EARLY DAYS HERE.

>> Eric: THE PRESIDENT TAKES OFF AS A LAME DUCK, SO IS THAT INDICATE A SHORT HONEYMOON WHAT HE COULD GET STUFF DONE?

>> I MEAN, THIS IS HIS FIRST WEEK OF OFFICE AND THAT SHOULD BE YOUR STRONGEST POINT WHERE YOU CAN GET THINGS DONE AND MAKE A SELL.

HE'S SPENDING A LOT OF CAPITAL RIGHT NOW.

HE REALLY IS.

I MEAN, THE PARDON IS AN EXAMPLE OF IT, INTERFERING IN THE HOUSE COMMITTEE CHAIRMANSHIP FOR INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE WHEN YOU ONLY HAVE A TWO-SEAT ADVANTAGE.

HE'S SPENDING A LOT OF CAPITAL AND I THINK THAT THERE ARE CONTRADICTIONS AND, YOU KNOW, THE THING WITH THE PARDON OF THE FELLOW WHO OPERATED THE DARK WEB WEBSITE, PARDON HIM OUTRIGHT, AT THE SAME TIME HE'S SAYING WE SHOULD EXECUTE DRUG DEALERS, IT'S BIZARRE.

>> I THINK THIS IS A REALLY IMPORTANT THEME BUT IT UNDERSCORES AN ELEMENT OF A PRESIDENCY THAT IS BIPARTISAN, WHICH IS THE GROWTH OF THE IMPERIAL PRESIDENCY, THAT IS THE POWER OF THE PRESIDENT TO ACT ALONE WITHOUT CONGRESS AND WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT EXECUTIVE ORDERS BUT THERE'S A WHOLE SLOUGH OF POWERS THAT PRESIDENTS HAVE GATHERED.

WALTER MONDALE AFTER SERVING AT ONE POINT SAID THAT BOTH PARTIES HAD LEFT A LOADED GUN ON THE TABLE IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

AND DONALD TRUMP IS REACHING FOR IT, WHETHER IT'S DOMESTIC POLICY OR INTERNATIONAL FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND NATIONAL SECURITY.

>> WELL, LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING REAL QUICK, LARRY.

HOW MUCH OF THAT DO YOU THINK IS THE PRESIDENT TAKING POWER, AND HOW MUCH OF IT IS CONGRESS JUST GIVING IT UP?

>> BOTH.

>> IT IS -- TWO THINGS.

FIRST, THE GREAT YOGI BERRA, IT'S DEJA VU ALL OVER AGAIN.

THE TRUMP 1.0, SAYING DO I WANT TO MOVE AN AGENDA R DISABLE GOVERNMENT?

SAME CONTRADICTION HERE THAT WE'RE SEEING ALL OVER AGAIN.

AND THEN JUST IN TERMS OF HOW THIS IS ALL GOING TO PLAY OUT OVER THE NEXT FEW MONTHS IS I DON'T THINK THEY'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO RESOLVE THAT CONTRADICTION WHATSOEVER.

BUT THINK ABOUT POST-WATERGATE.

WATERGATE, POST-WATERGATE THE BIG REFORMS ON BUDGETING, ON EMERGENCY POWERS AND ON WAR POWERS.

THEY'VE ALL COLLAPSED, BUT IN THE PROCESS OF ALL THIS CONGRESS HAS GIVEN -- AS YOU'RE BOTH POINTING OUT HERE -- SO MUCH POWER TO THE PRESIDENT THAT ARTHUR SHA LESSINGER JUNIOR THE GREAT HISTORIAN TURNS OUT TO BE RIGHT, THIS IS THE PATH DOWN TO THE EMPIRICAL PRESIDENCY.

>> Cathy: EXPLAIN A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE ABDICATION OF CONGRESS IN TERMS OF POLARIZATION AND INABILITY TO AGREE ON ANYTHING?

>> IT'S PARTLY THE DYSFUNCTION OF CONGRESS.

SO THE PRESIDENT INCLUDING JOE BIDEN, JOE BIDEN SENDS TROOPS AND MILITARY EQUIPMENT TO THE MIDDLE EAST.

WE'RE PROTECTING ISRAEL.

HAD CONGRESS ACTED?

HAD CONGRESS AUTHORIZED THAT?

NO, HE WAS JUST ACTING AND CONGRESS EVEN THOUGH THERE WERE VOICES RAISING QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS, THEY DID NOT NOTHING.

THEY LET THE PRESIDENT ACT.

AND WHETHER IT'S FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND NATIONAL SECURITY, DONALD TRUMP HAS SENT TROOPS TO THE BORDER.

WELL, HOW'S HE DOING THAT?

HE'S MAKING A DECLARATION ABOUT HIS POWER, IT'S AN ASSERTION THAT MAY WELL BE OVERTURNED BY THE COURTS.

>> ROFESSOR RUGELEY.

>> THERE'S A COUPLE THINGS, AS LARRY MENTIONED, THE WHOLE THING WITH IMMIGRATION PART OF THE REASON IS IT NEVER GETS RESOLVED IS IT'S NOT THE EXECUTIVE THAT SHOULD BE DOING IT, THEY SHOULD BE PASSING A BILL ON THAT.

>> YEAH.

>> Cathy: WELL, THEY TRIED.

>> WELL, THEY DIDN'T.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> Cathy: YEAH.

RIGHT.

>> THEY IDN'T, THEY DIDN'T GET IT DONE.

AND THE SAME THING, I MEAN, IT'S BEEN OUT THERE FOREVER.

I MEAN, GEORGE W. BUSH WAS DEALING WITH THAT ISSUE.

IN THIS LAST WEEK THEY PASSED A LAW ABOUT TIK TOK AND HE SAID, AH, WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO THAT.

AND, OH, THAT'S COOL, YOU DON'T HAVE TO.

AND IT'S JUST A WEIRD SET OF SITUATIONS.

>> IF I COULD ADD ONE MORE THING TO IT.

A SIMPLISTIC THING I TELL MY STUDENTS.

WHAT IS PRESIDENCY POWER?

ARTICLE II POWERS THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS BY THE CONSTITUTION AND POWERS THAT THE CONGRESS GIVES TO THE PRESIDENT.

SOMEWHAT IT'S ABDICATION BUT IT'S ALSO CONGRESS SAYING WE'RE GOING TO GET THE PRESIDENT DO THIS STUFF.

>> Eric: IT'S EARLY DAYS BUT DO WE KNOW HOW TRUMP TWO IS GOING TO BE DIFFERENT THAN TRUMP ONE?

>> RIGHT AWAY WE'RE SEEING MORE ORGANIZATION.

THEY ACTUALLY HAVE A GOOD NUMBER OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS ALREADY WRITTEN OUT, THEY'VE DONE SOME THOUGHT ON IT.

THEY'VE GOT A CHIEF OF STAFF WHO KNOWS WASHINGTON VERY WELL.

SHE COULD BE THERE FOR SOME TIME AND SHE'S GOT THE ADMINISTRATION BETTER ORGANIZED.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THE ASSERTION OF POWER WITH REGARDS TO IMMIGRATION, THEY'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO BE DOING THE DEPORTATION.

THEY ARE ACTUALLY STOPPING, YOU KNOW, MEASURES WITH REGARDS TO ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE.

DEI IS MOVING AHEAD MUCH FASTER, DIVERSITY PROGRAMS THEY'RE MOVING AHEAD MUCH FASTER TO STOP THAT.

AGAIN AND GAIN I'M SEEING A LOT BETTER INITIATIVE AND THEY LOOK BETTER ORGANIZED.

>> HE SEEMS ANGRIER THOUGH AT THE SAME TIME AND I THINK THAT WE'RE SEEING A LOT OF THAT.

BUT HE WENT TO CALIFORNIA AND HE AND GOVERNOR NEWSOM, YOU KNOW, HANDLED IT WELL.

>> Eric: THEY GOT ALONG?

>> YEAH, THEY DID, THEY SPOKE -- THEY WERE NICE.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> Cathy: ALL RIGHT, YOU ARE ALWAYS FANTASTIC.

>> Eric: FULL EMPLOYMENT FOR POLITICAL SCIENTISTS FOR THE