[ LAUGHTER ] >> Cathy: OH, J.G., I'M TELLIN' YA.

WELL, AFTER A DECADE OF SERVICE THE LEADER OF THE NON-PROFIT PROJECT FOR PRIDE IN LIVING IS STEPPING DOWN.

UNDER HIS TENURE, P.P.L.

EXPANDED ITS AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNITS, INCREASED THEIR BUDGET, AND MOST RECENTLY WELCOMED A NEW SUCCESSOR.

BUT THE WORK ISN'T DONE FOR THE DEPARTING CEO AS HE HEADS INTO RETIREMENT NEXT MONTH.

JOINING US NOW, P.P.L.

HEAD AND FORMER ST. PAUL DEPUTY MAYOR, PAUL WILLIAMS.

THAT, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Cathy: CONGRATULATIONS.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Cathy: ON THIS NEW CHAPTER YOU'RE HEADING INTO.

BECAUSE YOU'VE BEEN AROUND FOR A WHILE, I HATE TO SAY THAT, BUT YOU HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A WHILE, IT SEEMS AS THOUGH THE PROBLEMS ARE EVEN HARDER NOW THAN THEY WERE WHEN YOU FIRST GOT INTO THIS.

AM I RIGHT ABOUT THAT >> I THINK THEY ARE AND I THINK THEY'VE CHANGED AS WELL.

WHEN WE LOOK AT ISSUES AROUND HOUSING, AFFORDABLE HOUSING CONTINUES TO BE A CHALLENGE, NUMBER ONE DRIVER OF INFLATION, RIGHT, WHICH EVERYONE HAS BEEN SO CONCERNED ABOUT FOR SO MANY YEARS HERE NOW.

HOMELESSNESS, CONTINUED CHALLENGE.

JOBS AND, YOU KNOW, WORKFORCE SHORTAGES.

SOME OF THOSE THINGS ABSOLUTELY HAVE GOTTEN WORSE AND WE'VE SEEN THEM COMING FOR A WHILE.

SO I ALSO, THOUGH, SEE OPPORTUNITY.

AND I THINK THIS IS A TIME OF OPPORTUNITY AND A TIME OF GROWTH.

SO IT'S KIND OF A BOTH/AND.

BOTH THINGS HAVE GOTTEN HARDER AND I THINK WE'VE SEEN SOME AREAS WHERE I THINK WE CAN GROW AND PROSPER.

>> Cathy: NOW, FOLKS MIGHT NOT KNOW WHAT P.P.L.

DOES SO HOW HAS P.P.L.

POSITIONED ITSELF TO TRY TO BATTLE SOME OF THIS?

>> WELL, P.P.L.

'S BEEN AROUND FOR 50-PLUS YEARS, FOUNDED BY A WONDERFUL SOCIAL ENTREPRENEUR AND SOCIAL ACT JOE VAGGIIO WHO RECENTLY PASSED AWAY THIS YEAR ACTUALLY.

SO FOR US HOUSING AND JOB TRAINING ARE KIND OF TWO ELEMENTS OF STABILITY FOR ANY HOUSEHOLD AND THAT'S BEEN OUR BELIEF FOR QUITE SOME TIME.

WE ALSO DO A LOT OF WORK WITH YOUNG PEOPLE.

AND SO BUILDING AND MAINTAINING AFFORDABLE HOUSING, GIVING PEOPLE A ROOF OVER THEIR HEAD BUT ALSO WORKING WITH THEM TO KIND OF BUILD THEIR SKILLS AND THEN ACCESS TO JOB TRAINING WHICH WE SO DESPERATELY NEED FOLKS IN THIS ECONOMY.

WE NEED EVERY WORKER WE CAN GET.

AND SO THAT'S BEEN P.P.L.

'S MODEL FOR DECADES, ACTUALLY.

>> Eric: ARE THE GOVERNMENT AGENCIES LOOKING AT HOUSING AND THE NON-PROFITS THAT ARE LOOKING AT HOUSING AND EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING, ARE THEY ALL ON THE AME PAGE?

ARE THEY PUSHING IN THE SAME DIRECTION, OR ARE THERE CROSS-PURPOSES GOING ON?

>> WELL, I THINK WE'RE PUSHING IN THE SAME DIRECTION.

WE'VE HAD A WONDERFUL TRADITION HERE IN MINNESOTA ESPECIALLY OF A COMMITMENT TO AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

ACTUALLY UNIQUE IN THE NATION.

>> Eric: HOW ARE WE DOING IN COMPARISON TO OTHER CITIES AROUND -- OR OTHER STATES?

>> WELL, IT VARIES BUT IN TERMS OF WHEN YOU LOOK AT KIND OF THE TRACK RECORD OF THE LEGISLATURE AND THE STATE GOVERNMENT, FOR EXAMPLE, COUNTY GOVERNMENTS, CITIES, VERY INVOLVED IN HOUSING.

WE'VE BEEN VERY COMMITTED TO THAT AND I THINK GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN A CRUCIAL PARTNER AS WELL AS THE PRIVATE SECTOR HERE.

AT THE SAME TIME THAT THE GROWTH IN THE POPULATION AND THE NEED FOR HOUSING, FOR EXAMPLE, CONTINUES TO GROW AND ACTUALLY HAS EVEN OUTPACED THOSE INCREDIBLE EFFORTS.

AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT, YOU KNOW, THIS LAST FIVE YEARS COMING OUT OF THE PANDEMIC, THE INCREASE IN COSTS OF MAINTAINING AND BUILDING THAT HOUSING HAS OUTPACED, RIGHT, THE WONDERFUL RESOURCES THAT STATE GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN ABLE TO PROVIDE.

AND SO WE'RE FIGHTING AN UPHILL BATTLE THAT CONTINUES TO GET KIND OF STEEPER AS WE'RE DOING IT, BUT MINNESOTA HAS A RICH HISTORY AND I THINK, AND SOME SUCCESS IN A TIME, THOUGH, WHEN IT'S GETTING EVEN MORE DIFFICULT TO MAKE IT PENCIL OUT.

>> Cathy: WHAT ARE YOU SEEING IN TERMS OF INNOVATIONS, HERE, PAUL, MOVING FORWARD TO ATTACK THE PROBLEMS OF AFFORDABLE HOUSING AND OF JOB TRAINING?

I MEAN, WHAT, IN YOUR SPHERE HERE OF INFLUENCE, ARE YOU SEEING INNOVATION THAT EXCITES YOU?

>> I SEE A LOT OF IMPORTANT CONVERSATIONS HAPPENING.

THE CONVERSATIONS AROUND LAND USE AND ZONING, THESE ARE DIFFICULT CONVERSATIONS.

HOW WE REGULATE LAND HAS A REAL IMPACT ON THE ABILITY TO CREATE MORE HOUSING, FOR EXAMPLE.

PRIVATE SECTOR HERE, THE PRIVATE DEVELOPERS ACTUALLY ARE QUITE INVOLVED IN AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

THEY'D LOVE TO DO MORE BUT, AGAIN, THIS ISSUE OF CAN YOU MAKE IT PENCIL OUT IS PART OF THE CHALLENGE.

SO I THINK THOSE ARE SUPPORTIVE HOUSING, COMBINING SERVICES WITH THAT AFFORDABLE HOUSING WORKFORCE HOUSING AND BUILDING IT ALONG TRANSIT LINES.

THOSE ARE ALL THINGS THAT WE'VE DONE ACTUALLY FAIRLY WELL, BUT, AGAIN, THE CHALLENGE IS HOW DO WE KIND OF TAKE IT TO SCALE AND HOW DO WE ALSO KIND OF MOVE IN SOME DIFFERENT WAYS THAT GETS GOVERNMENT MORE ALIGNED, GET THE PRIVATE SECTOR MORE ALIGNED WITH THAT WORK.

, WHAT'S YOUR SERVICE PATTERN GOING TO LOOK LIKE AS YOU RETIRE?

YOU'VE GOT STUFF PLANNED AND READY TO GO?

>> OH, ABSOLUTELY, YEAH.

I'M GOING TO CONTINUE WORKING, I'M ON A NUMBER OF BOARDS, ON THE FEDERAL RESERVE BOARD AND HEALTHPARTNERS BOARD, DOING SOME WORK DOWN IN ROCHESTER WITH THE GROWTH OF MAYO AND THOSE ARE ALL IMPORTANT AREAS THAT I'M PASSIONATE ABOUT.

AND MY COMMITMENT TO EQUITY AND LEADERSHIP DEVELOPMENT ARE STILL -- >> Eric: DOESN'T REALLY SOUND LIKE RETIREMENT.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> NO, WELL, WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING IS I DON'T WANT TO GET UP FIRST THING IN THE MORNING AND GET MY BODY ARMOR ON AND GO