>> NEXT, ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL THAT COMMITTED HIS LIFE TO HIS IDEALS.

IN 2022, KENNETH ROTH LEFT HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH AFTER 30 YEARS AT THE HELM, DURING WHICH THE ORGANIZATION GREW DRAMATICALLY, CONDUCTING INVESTIGATIONS IN MORE THAN 100 COUNTRIES TO UNDERCOVER ABUSES.

SPEAKING TO WALTER ISAACSON, ROTH DISCUSSES HIS NEW BOOK WHICH DIGS INTO HIS THREE DECADES LEADING THE CHARGE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS AND ALSO, THEY SPEAK ABOUT THE MAJOR CHALLENGES TODAY.

HERE IS THEIR CONVERSATION.

>> THANK YOU, PAULA.

KENNETH ROTH, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> NICE TO BE WITH YOU.

>> YOU HAVE LED HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH FOR 30 YEARS AND I YOU ARE OUT WITH A BOOK ABOUT IT.

IT IS CALLED "RIGHTING WRONGS," THREE DECADES ON THE FRONT LINES BATTLING ABUSIVE GOVERNMENTS.

TAKE US BACK TO WHAT FIRST INSPIRED YOUR INTEREST IN HUMAN RIGHTS.

>> A BIG PART OF IT WAS MY FATHER'S EXPERIENCE.

HE FLED NAZI GERMANY IN JULY OF 1938 AS A 12-YEAR-OLD BOY, HEADING TO NEW YORK.

AND SO I GREW UP WITH HITLER'S STORIES AND WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO BE A YOUNG JEWISH BOY LIVING UNDER THE NAZIS.

AND THAT MADE ME VERY AWARE OF THE EVIL THAT GOVERNMENTS CAN DO AND MADE ME DETERMINED TO DEVOTE MY LIFE TO STOP THAT CONDUCT.

>> OR BE BACKSLIDING NOW FROM THE HUMAN RIGHTS FIGHT?

>> THIS IS CLEARLY A DIFFICULT MOMENT IN THE SENSE THAT TRUMP HAS ARRIVED.

THE AUTOCRATS FEEL EMBOLDENED.

BUT I ACTUALLY THINK THAT IT IS A COMPLICATED TIME FOR AUTOCRATS .

THE TWO MOST PROMINENT ONES, VLADIMIR PUTIN AND XI JINPING, BOTH MADE BIG MISTAKES BECAUSE THEY OPERATE IN AN ECHO CHAMBER WITH NO DEBATE ALLOWED.

AND THEN PUTIN INVADED UKRAINE AND XI JINPING IS DESTROYING THE ECONOMY.

WHEN YOU LOOK AROUND THE WORLD, PEOPLE LIVING UNDER AUTOCRACY DON'T WANT IT.

THEY COME TO THE STREETS AT RISK OF ARREST ARE BEING SHOT SOMETIMES THEY SUCCEED IN PLACES LIKE BANGLADESH OR SRI LANKA.

OTHER TIMES THEY DON'T.

ON THE BELIEVERS RUSSIA UGANDA HONG KONG.

BUT PEOPLE MAKE THEIR PREFERENCE CLEAR I THINK THE REAL CHALLENGE TODAY IS AN ESTABLISHED WESTERN DEMOCRACIES WHERE PEOPLE FEEL LEFT BEHIND, THAT DEMOCRACIES ARE NOT DELIVERING TO THEM.

THEY ARE NOT RESPECTED OR HEARD.

THE RIGHT FOR THE AUTOCRAT APPEAL.

I THINK THE REAL CHALLENGE IS TO BOLSTER THE ESTABLISHED DEMOCRACIES.

THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE UNDER AUTOCRACIES DON'T WANT IT.

IT IS PEOPLE IN DEMOCRACIES WHO ARE HAVING SECOND THOUGHTS.

>> ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE UNITED STATES?

>> CERTAINLY THE UNITED STATES.

BUT IF YOU LOOK THROUGHOUT EUROPE, THE FAR RIGHT PARTIES ARE DOING WELL.

OFTEN, MOST TYPICALLY, THEY DON'T GAIN POWER WITH THE EXCEPTION OF HUNGARY WITH VIKTOR ORBAN.

BUT THEY ARE THREATENING.

AND I THINK THAT IS A CONCERN.

IT SPEAKS TO THE DIFFICULTY THESE GOVERNMENTS HAVE OF REALLY ANSWERING TO THE DAY-TO- DAY NEEDS OF THEIR ENTIRE SOCIETY.

>> I ALWAYS THINK OF YOU AND HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH IN PLACES LIKE CHINA OR RUSSIA WHERE THERE ARE GROSS VIOLATIONS OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

DO YOU THINK THE HUMAN RIGHTS COMMUNITY SHOULD BE INVOLVED IN WESTERN EUROPE'S ELECTIONS NOW?

>> THE HUMAN RIGHTS COMMUNITY HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN THE WEST.

THEY ALWAYS HAVE.

THE IDEA THAT DEMOCRACIES DON'T VIOLATE HUMAN RIGHTS, THAT IS JUST NOT TRUE.

THINK BACK TO THE GEORGE W. BUSH ADMINISTRATION, SYSTEMATIC TORTURE.

SENDING PEOPLE TO GUANTANAMO FOR ENDLESS DETENTION WITHOUT CHARGE OR TRIAL.

SO YES, WE DO HAVE TO MONITOR WESTERN DEMOCRACIES AND THAT IS NOT EVEN TALKING ABOUT HOW THEY WAGE WAR.

YOU LOOK AT HOW ISRAEL HAS CONDUCTED ITSELF IN GAZA.

WE ARE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY MONITOR AND REPORT HER.

AND WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE CLASSIC AUTOCRATS BUT ALSO AT THE ESTABLISHED DEMOCRACIES.

>> YOU JUST SAID ABOUT HOW ISRAEL HAS WAGED WAR IN GAZA.

LET ME READ YOU SOMETHING.

YOU SAID NO ONE CAN JUSTIFY A WAR CRIME BY CONTENDING THAT THE OTHER SIDE COMMITTED WAR CRIMES TOO.

I ASSUME YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT ISRAEL.

IS THAT WHAT HAPPENED THERE?

AND WHAT COULD WE HAVE DONE?

>> THAT IS A BASIC RULE OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW, WHICH IS, EVEN MORE, EVERYBODY CHARGES THE OTHER SIDE WITH WAR CRIMES.

IF THAT WERE ENOUGH TO JUSTIFY YOUR OWN WAR CRIMES, THERE QUICKLY WOULD BE NO PROTECTION FOR CIVILIANS.

BUT THE RULE IS, EVEN IF ONE SIDE, SAY HAMAS COMMITTED WAR CRIMES ON OCTOBER 7TH, WHICH THEY DID BY KILLING AND ABDUCTING CIVILIANS AND HOLDING THEM FOR MONTHS ON THE BE, THAT IS NOT JUSTIFYING ISRAEL'S OWN WORK CRIMES.

IT IS BOMBARDMENT, ATTACKS WITH HUGELY DISPROPORTIONATE CONSEQUENCES, STARVATION STRATEGY, THE DESTRUCTION OF HOSPITALS.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO KEEP THAT DISTINCTION STRAIGHT AND TO MONITOR EACH SIDE BY THE TERMS OF HUMANITARIAN LAW.

>> WHAT SHOULD WE HAVE DONE?

>> I THINK JOE BIDEN NEVER REALLY USED THE LEVERAGE HE HAD.

HE PRESSED THE BENJAMIN NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT TO END THE STARVATION STRATEGY AND PAY MORE ATTENTION TO THE BOMBING AND THE TOLL THAT WAS TAKEN ON CIVILIANS.

THE ONLY THING HE DID WAS TO SUSPEND THE DELIVERY OF THESE HUGE 2000-POUND BOMBS THAT WERE DECIMATING NEIGHBORHOODS.

OTHERWISE, HE CONTINUED THE MILITARY AID AND CONTINUED THE ARMS SALES AND THEN BENJAMIN NETANYAHU THOUGHT, I WILL PUT UP WITH SOME VERBAL PROTESTS BUT HE IS NOT STOPPING IT.

HE COULD HAVE BEEN TOUGHER AND SAVED MANY LIVES.

>> YOU HAVE WRITTEN TOO ABOUT IT THAT NO ASPECT OF OUR WORK WAS MORE CLOSELY SCRUTINIZED THAN OUR REPORTING ON ISRAEL.

AND I THINK AT TIMES PERSONALLY YOU HAD TO DEAL WITH IT.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> THERE IS NO COUNTRY OUT THERE THAT HAS A MORE ORGANIZED GROUP OF DEFENDERS THAN ISRAEL.

AT HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH, WE KNEW EVERY TIME WE PUBLISH SOMETHING CRITICAL ABOUT ISRAEL, WE WOULD BE DOING THAT.

I PERSONALLY SCRUTINIZE EVERYTHING WE PUT OUT TO MAKE SURE THAT IT WAS FACTUALLY ACCURATE.

THAT IT WAS THE PRINCIPAL OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS STANDARDS AND WE WERE APPLYING THE SAME STANDARDS AS EVERY PLACE ELSE IN THE WORLD.

AND WHEN IT PASSED SCRUTINY, WE PUT IT OUT.

I WAS IN ACCUSED OF BEING ANTI- SEMITIC WHICH IS A VERY COMMON CRITICISM.

I WOULD SAY, YOU ARE CHEAPENING THE CONCEPT OF ANTI-SEMITISM.

THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT CONCEPT.

JEWISH PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD ARE ENDANGERED BY ANTI- SEMITISM.

IF PEOPLE THINK THAT THIS JUST BECOMES AN EXCUSE TO DEFEND ISRAEL, YOU WILL BE HARMING THE JEWISH AROUND THE WORLD AND IT IS IMPORTANT TO SAY THAT IT OTHERWISE, THIS KIND OF MISUSE OF ANTI-SEMITISM WILL CONTINUE TO COVER UP THE ISRAEL WAR CRIMES AND THE LIKE.

>> DO YOU THINK THERE HAVE BEEN ISRAEL WORK CRIMES?

>> THERE IS NO QUESTION.

I HAVE WRITTEN EXTENSIVELY ON THIS.

THE USE OF THESE HUGE BOMBS TO DECIMATE ENTIRE NEIGHBORHOODS IS COMPLETELY CONTRARY TO THE RULES OF WAR THAT SAY YOU HAVE TO TARGET PARTICULAR MILITARY TARGETS AND NOT TREAT ENTIRE NEIGHBORHOODS AS FAIR GAME.

SIMILARLY, ISRAEL IS NOT CLEAR BY THE ISRAELI MEDIA ON REPORTING WOULD JUSTIFY KILLING UP TO 20 CIVILIANS JUST TO GO AFTER ONE HAMAS FIGHTER.

THAT IS A CLEARLY ILLEGAL WAR CRIME.

AND THEN FINALLY, IF YOU LOOK AT THE STARVATION STRATEGY, THE FACT THAT DURING THE CURRENT PERMANENT CEASE- FIRE, SUDDENLY THE FOOD AS WELL AND PEOPLE ARE OKAY.

IT JUST HIGHLIGHTS HOW MUCH THE STARVATION COME UP UNTIL THE BEGINNING OF THE TEMPORARY CEASE-FIRE, WAS A DELIBERATE ISRAELI POLICY.

>> I KNOW THAT CANNOT BE JUSTIFIED BY PALESTINIAN WAR CRIMES BUT WHAT DID YOU THINK WHEN YOU SAW THIS PAST WEEK WHEN THE BODIES OF THE ISRAELI HOSTAGES AND THE WAY THEY WERE TREATED AND HOW THEY WERE RETURNED WERE?

>> HAMAS IS DESPICABLE.

I NEVER DEFEND HAMAS.

THERE ARE MILITARY DICTATORSHIPS IN GAZA.

THE ATROCITIES THEY COMMITTED ON OCTOBER 7th ARE HORRIBLE PICK THEY SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN HOLDING HOSTAGES.

THEY HAVE BEEN MISTREATING THEM AND FORCING THEM TO GO THROUGH THESE CHARADES TO DEMONSTRATE THE POWER OF HAMAS.

MUCH OF THAT IS A WAR CRIME ITSELF.

AS I MENTIONED, THAT DOES NOT JUSTIFY ISRAEL'S OWN WAR CRIMES .

JUST AS HAMAS' TENDENCY TO HIDE BEHIND CIVILIANS TO USE HUMAN SHIELDS DOES NOT RELIEVE ISRAEL OF THE RESPONSIBILITY STILL NOT TO LAUNCH INDISCRIMINATE ATTACKS AND NOT TO ATTACK AND HARM CIVILIANS WOULD BE DISPROPORTIONATE.

>> WHAT YOU THINK IN TERMS OF HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES AND THE PLAN TRUMP HAS BEEN PUSHING TO CLEAR PALESTINIANS OUT OF GAZA?

>> THIS WOULD BE NOT ONLY A MASSIVE WAR CRIME BUT IT WOULD BE A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.

ARTICLE 49 OF THE CONVENTION PROHIBITS FORCIBLY EXPORTING OR TO DISPELLING THE OCCUPIED TERRITORY.

TRUMP IS RIPPING THAT UP AND SAYING, LET'S DO IT ANYWAY.

THE REST OF THE ARAB WORLD IS SAYING, NO WAY.

THEY REMEMBER 1948, THE CATASTROPHE WERE PALESTINIANS WERE FORCED OUT OF THE NEW STATE OF ISRAEL, GIVEN A ONE- WAY TICKET AND NEVER ALLOWED BACK.

THAT CLEARLY, AS TRUMP SAID, IS THE PLAN WITH THE 2 MILLION PALESTINIANS THAT ARE LIVING IN GAZA TODAY.

THE REST OF THE ARAB STATES ARE SAYING, NO WAY.

WE WON'T BE COMPLICIT IN THAT WERE CRIME.

>> WE TALK ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES AND YOU OFTEN FOCUS RIGHTLY ON VLADIMIR PUTIN AND WITH WHAT RUSSIA HAS DONE AND WHAT THEY ARE DOING IN UKRAINE.

WHAT WOULD HAPPEN WITH THE NEXT TWO WEEKS, IF THERE IS A PEACE IMPOSED OR MAYBE JUST A PEACE AGREED TO IN THE REGION IN WHICH VLADIMIR PUTIN GETS TO KEEP A LOT OF DISPUTED TERRITORY AND UKRAINE IS NOT ALLOWED IN NATO?

>> WALTER, I THINK IN FACT THOSE TWO POSSIBILITIES ARE QUITE LIKELY.

BUT THAT IS NOT REALLY THE ISSUE.

I DON'T THINK ANYBODY FEELS THAT IT WILL BE POSSIBLE FOR UKRAINE TO RECAPTURE THE TERRITORY THAT RUSSIA HAS OCCUPIED.

A FORMAL NATO INVITATION IS JUST NOT ON THE TABLE.

BUT WHAT UKRAINE IS LOOKING FOR IS A REAL SECURITY GUARANTEE.

A GUARANTEE THAT RUSSIA WON'T USE A CEASE-FIRE TO JUST REARM AND RE- INVADE IN A YEAR OR TWO.

AND THAT IS WHAT TRUMP NEEDS TO OFFER.

THE EUROPEANS ARE VERY MUCH WILLING TO PUT THAT ON THE TABLE .

IF TRUMP JUST SAYS, TAKE A CEASE-FIRE AND GO HOME AND WE ARE NOT GOING TO WORRY ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE, THAT WOULD BE ESSENTIALLY THE APPEASEMENT, THE 21st CENTURY EQUIVALENT OF CHAMBERLAIN.

THAT WOULD BE A HORRIBLE DEAL THAT TRUMP HAS SUPPOSEDLY BEEN IN A -- MASTER NEGOTIATOR AND WOULD BE COMPLICIT IN.

>> WHAT IS THE ROLE OF PURSUING HUMAN RIGHTS?

>> AND TODAY'S WORLD, EVERY GOVERNMENT HAS TO PRETEND TO RESPECT HUMAN RIGHTS.

THIS IS A BASIC ASPECT OF THEIR LEGITIMACY BUT WE KNOW THAT MANY GOVERNMENTS DON'T.

AND WHAT HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH DOES IN A SENSE IS TO SHINE A SPOTLIGHT ON THAT DISCREPANCY.

WE INVESTIGATE CAREFULLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

WE REPORT ON MISCONDUCT.

THAT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PRETENSE AND REALITY IS EMBARRASSING.

IT IS DELEGITIMIZING AND IT IS SHAMEFUL.

GOVERNMENTS GO TO GREAT LENGTHS .

IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT A DICTATOR HAS PERSONAL REMORSE.

WE ARE NOT TRYING TO DO A PSYCHOLOGICAL CONVERSION HERE.

BUT IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN LEGITIMACY AND MAINTAIN THIS PRETENSE THAT THEY ARE SERVING THEIR PEOPLE AND NOT THEMSELVES, THEY WANT TO BE SEEN AS HUMAN RIGHTS RESPECTER'S.

THAT IS WHAT GIVES THE POWER TO SHOW THE PRETENSES NOT NOT REAL.

>> AND FIGHTING FOR HUMAN RIGHTS AROUND THE WORLD, I THINK YOU SOMETIMES PRESSURE THE U.S. GOVERNMENT TO TAKE A STANCE IN FAVOR OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

HOW DO YOU DIVIDE UP WHAT A NONGOVERNMENTAL ORGANIZATION LIKE YOURSELF SHOULD DO AND WHAT DO YOU THINK THE U.S. GOVERNMENT SHOULD DO?

>> HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH IN ADDITION TO REPORTING ON HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS AND SHINING A SPOTLIGHT OF SHAME ON THE ABUSER, WE ALSO GO TO INFLUENTIAL GOVERNMENTS THAT REPORT TO SUPPORT HUMAN RIGHTS AND THEIR FOREIGN POLICIES.

NOT JUST UNITED STATES BUT MOST OF EUROPE AND PARTS OF LATIN AMERICA.

SO THAT, IN A SENSE, DIPLOMATIC SIDE, IS VERY IMPORTANT.

WE WILL SAY, WHAT DOES THE TARGET GOVERNMENT CARE ABOUT AND HOW CAN WE DEPRIVE THEM OF THAT AND SO THEY IMPROVE THEIR HUMAN RIGHTS PRACTICES?

THEY ALWAYS WANT SOMETHING.

YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT THEY WANT.

IT COULD BE A MILITARY AID PACKAGE.

IT COULD BE AN ARMS SALE.

IT COULD BE PREFERENTIAL TRADE BENEFITS.

SOMETIMES IT IS JUST GETTING INVITED TO A FANCY SUMMIT SO THEY CAN BE PHOTOGRAPHED WITH LEGITIMATE LEADERS TO SHOW THE FOLKS BACK HOME THAT, I'M OKAY.

LOOK WHO I HANG OUT WITH.

WE WILL GO TO THE LEADER OF THE DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY AND SAY, DON'T GIVE THEM THAT UNTIL THEY CHANGE.

TRADITIONALLY, WE DO THIS A LOT WITH THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

UNDER TRUMP, I DON'T HAVE GREAT CONFIDENCE.

WE HAVE LIVED THERE TRUMP BEFORE AND WE HAVE DONE WITH OTHERS.

I DESCRIBED IN THE BOOK AND I OPEN UP AN EFFORT TO GET PUTIN TO STOP BOMBING CIVILIANS IN NORTHWESTERN SYRIA.

THIS WAS DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

TRUMP WAS NOT GOING TO BE A RELIABLE ALLY.

BUT IT WAS BY TURNING TO GERMAN CHANCELLOR ANGELA MERKEL, FRENCH PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON, AND THE TURKISH PRESIDENT, ERDOGAN, WE PERSUADED THOSE THREE TO PRESSURE PUTIN TO STOP BOMBING HOSPITALS AND APARTMENTS AND IT STOPPED IN MARCH OF 2020.

A STEP ENTIRELY FOR THREE YEARS AND IT REVIVED A LITTLE BIT AFTER THAT.

AND THAT WAS THE TERRITORY FOR WHICH THEY CAME TO OVERTHROW THE ASSAD GOVERNMENT.

THAT MADE A HUGE DIFFERENCE FOR THE PEOPLE ON THE GROUND.

THEY NO LONGER FEAREDDEATH FROM THE SKY WAYS.

WAS POSSIBLE REALLY BECAUSE WE WORKED WITH DEMOCRACIES TO PUT PRESSURE ON THE TARGET.

>> YOU BEGIN YOUR CHAPTER ON CHINA BY ARGUING THAT IT IS THE BIGGEST THREAT TO HUMAN RIGHTS TODAY.

AND HERE IS A SENTENCE THAT WAS NOTABLE.

BEIJING'S ACTIONS, IF UNCHECKED, PUTS A DYSTOPIAN FUTURE IN WHICH NO ONE IS BEYOND THE REACH OF CHINESE SENSORS.

UNPACK THAT FOR ME.

>> THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT IS THE GREATEST THREAT.

IT DEVOTES ENORMOUS RESOURCES FROM THE WORLD'S SECOND-LARGEST ECONOMY, TO TRY TO SUPPRESS CRITICISM OF IT AROUND THE WORLD .

IT IS NOT SIMPLY THAT IT SUPPRESSES DISSENT WITHIN CHINA BUT IT USES THE THREAT OF DENYING ACCESS TO THE CHINESE MARKET TO CENSOR PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD.

IT USES TRANSNATIONAL REPRESSION.

IF YOU ARE A MORE WEAK DISSIDENTS IN NEW YORK, YOUR PARENTS AT HOME WILL BE THREATENED IF YOU DON'T SHUT UP.

AND SO THEY ARE QUITE RUTHLESS IN TRYING TO PREVENT CRITICISM.

THEY GO THE NEXT STEP.

THEY ARE TRYING TO REWRITE HUMAN RIGHTS LAW WHICH IS QUITE DETAILED ABOUT NOT ONLY THINGS LIKE FREEDOM FROM THE MEDIA OR FREE SPEECH OR THE RIGHT TO DUE PROCESS, BUT ALSO ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL RIGHTS, THE RIGHT TO HOUSING.

THEY WANT TO REDUCE EVERYTHING TO BASIC JUST BASICALLY, ARE WE EXPANDING THE ECONOMY?

TO BE PROVIDE SECURITY, AND ARE PEOPLE HAPPY?

HOW DO THEY MEASURE THAT.

IS A RADICAL DUMBING DOWN OF THE DETAILED HUMAN RIGHTS STANDARD TO TRY TO MAKE XI JINPING LOOK GOOD.

TO SAY THE ECONOMY IS GROWING AND IT IS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW.

THAT IS THE REAL THREAT TO THE HUMAN RIGHTS MOVEMENT AND NO ONE ELSE IS ATTEMPTING SOMETHING SO RADICAL.

>> THERE HAVE BEEN THESE CUTS IN USAID AND DOGE AND ELON MUSK CUTTING.

HOW IS THE POTENTIAL DECIMATION OF THE SOFT BELLAIRE AFFECT OUR ABILITY ON HUMAN RIGHTS?

>> WITH THE GLOBAL EFFECT OF USAID COME ON THE ONE HAND, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT INSTITUTION TO PROVIDE BASIC HEALTHCARE AND BASIC EDUCATION AND BASIC SANITATION.

THINGS PEOPLE NEED IN POOR COUNTRIES ALL THE TIME.

THE OTHER THING I'M WORRIED ABOUT IS THAT BY DESTROYING USAID, TRUMP IS ESSENTIALLY GIVING A GIFT TO AUTOCRATS.

A BIG PART OF WHAT USAID DOES IS MAYBE NOT SO WIDELY KNOWN BUT THAT IT PROMOTES HUMAN RIGHTS DEFENDERS, INDEPENDENT JOURNALISTS, DEMOCRACY REPORTERS AND THE KINDS OF INDEPENDENT VOICES THAT AUTOCRATS HATE.

AND A LOT OF THESE ARE BEING FORCED TO SHUT DOWN BECAUSE TRUMP HAS TURNED UP THE SPEC IT.

>> DO YOU THINK THE HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH WILL TAKE ON DONALD TRUMP?

>> WE HAVE TO.

IN OTHER WORDS, IF HIS DEPORTATION SCHEME WITH UNDOCUMENTED MIGRATION LEADS TO FAMILY SEPARATION OR NEEDLESS ATTENTION OR VARIOUS PHYSICAL ABUSES AGAINST MIGRANTS, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO LOOK AT THAT IF HE DOES HAS A TAX ON DEI REINTRODUCING RACIALIST TERMINATION TO THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THAT.

AND OF COURSE IN HIS FOREIGN POLICY, I DO STILL THINK THAT THERE ARE OPENINGS TO MOVE TRUMP.

BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND, YES, THIS GUY CANNOT FIND AN AUTOGRAPH HE DOESN'T WANT TO COZY UP TO.

HE ALSO SEES HIMSELF AS A MASTER DEALMAKER.

AND THAT GIVES US AN OPENING.

BECAUSE IF HE IGNORES HUMAN RIGHTS, HE WILL MAKE BAD DEALS PICK IN GAZA, HE PLAYED A USEFUL ROLE IN FORCING BENJAMIN NETANYAHU TO AGREE TO THE CURRENT TEMPORARY CEASE-FIRE.

IF HE WANTS THIS BIGGER REGIONAL DEAL, THE NORMALIZATION OF RELATIONS BETWEEN SAUDI ARABIA AND ISRAEL, HE WILL HAVE TO PUSH BENJAMIN NETANYAHU TO ACCEPT THE PALESTINIAN STATE.

IF HE DID THAT COME HE WOULD DESERVE THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE.

I THINK WE CAN PUSH HIM IN A POSITIVE DIRECTION, PLAYING ON HIS EGO, PLAYING ON HIS DESIRE FOR RECOGNITION.

AND IT MAY OR MAY NOT WORK BUT I THINK THIS IS OUR BEST STRATEGY TO MAKE PROGRESS.

>> KENNETH ROTH, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> I ENJOYED THE CONVERSATION.